What a crazy story O_o
While a bit hard to understand at times, it was pretty intriguing nonetheless.
The Green Knight was clothed in green (obviously) and gold. According to heraldry, green stands for hope and loyalty in love and gold stands for generosity. I'm not quite seeing those traits in the Green Knight except when he chooses not to kill Gawain.
I found it pretty interesting that the advances of the woman (who turned out to be the Green Knight's wife) was a test of sorts. I found it even more interesting when the Green Knight was actually the host of the castle where Gawain stayed. This reveals a whole network of relationships (Morgan is Gawain's aunt and Arthur's half-sister... crazy)
The three days of hunting where the "game" took place was interesting. First off, it kind of implied a homosexual relationship between the lord and Gawain. The lord said that they would exchange whatever they've won at the end of the day with eachother. Gawain, being stuck with such a beautiful lady as the lord's wife, was undoubtedly going to win some type of sexual favor, be it a kiss or whatever. The lord was out hunting. The lord's and Gawain's willingness to kiss does raise a few eyebrows. Could this just be that kissing was considered a bit looser than it is today? Or is there really something homosexual going on?
I read that the animals the lord catches decrease in value during the course of the three days. Deer are highly valued because, while they don't put up much of a fight, they challenged the hunters and their pelts and meat were of value. Also, the hunting party caught a lot of deer. The boar, while still of value and does challenge a hunter, can really only be valued due to its meat vs its fur. Lastly, the fox is the least valued animal. In Medieval times, while challenging to hunt, were thought of as deceitful creatures and it was very un-noble to hunt these. Their pelts were also of very little value.
The hunting parallels the "hunting" of Gawain performed by the host's wife. The wife essentially captures Gawain and pins him to the bed. He doesn't, however, give up without a fight. He complains and tells the lady that he must keep to his knight code. He does, however fail because the two qualities being challenge at the moment, chastity and courtesy, present a paradox when dealing with the lady. Refusing her advances preserves Gawain's chastity, but shows little courtesy. Accepting her advances, oppositely, preserves courtesy, but undermines chastity. As Gawain gives in little by little to the lady (accepting one, then two, then three kisses and a girdle), the hosts brings back decreasingly less valuable game.
Hmm. That's it for now.
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13 comments:
Well Albert, nice job getting the ball rolling. In response to your discussion of the "game" Gawain and the Green Knight "play": While I think queer theory applies and your explaination definitely makes it a valid point, I think the more important element of their trade is the test it give Gawain. The Green Knight wants to test whether or not Gawain is worthy of his knighthood so he has his wife come on to Gawain to see if Gawain can resist. In the end, the Green Knight sees that Gawain is a worthy character and thus he does not kill Gawain.
I also read something about the significance of the animals that were hunted (in the introduction of the Brian Stone translation of this story). This text suggests that the three hunts are allegories for Gawain's trials in the bedroom. The first animal hunted is a terror-stricken deer; at the same time Gawain is caught off guard at the unexpected advances of the Lady's advances. Then, the men hunt a fierce boar of "unbelievable size," while Gawain's chastity comes into question during the Lady's second visit. At this time, Gawain must resort to "almost desperate verbal shifts in order to maintain his courtesy without losing his chastity." Finally, the men hunt a wild fox and the chase is full of twists and turns, just like Gawain's third discussion with the Lady. The fox nearly escapes but then is cornered by the dogs; Gawain also nearly gets away but then errs by accepting her girdle. And like you said, Albert, the value of the pelts and meat of the animals also played into their significance in the plot.
Also, I found in my research of Arthurian legends that Morgan le Fay built a chapel that she used to test the chastity of Arthur's knights(the Green Chapel perhaps?). No one who was untrue in love could escape from this chapel. I was confused at the end of this story.. was Morgan le Fay the Green Knight's wife or was she someone else who was helping the Green Knight in his test of Gawain?
There were two ladies in the castle: the Green Knight's wife and the old lady, who was Morgan le Fay, if I'm not mistaken.
Wow. You guys brought up a lot of great points. I also read about the symbolic comparison of the animals and Gawain. I think that hidden messages, codes, comparisons, etc. are what make this poem so unique and complex. Even the characters themselves are very complex. At first they seem straightforward and you feel like you know all about them. However, as the story progresses, the characters, along with the events, change and become more complicated. In a way, it's a full circle. Simple, complicatad, simple(ish) again at the end. Same goes for the plot.
Albert, going back to the homosexuality point, I personally don't think it was so much about homosexuality. Maybe there's another 'hidden message' or meaning to it. It just seems that the poet has many meanings for a lot of the things he includes.
Fatima
And then there is the symbolism with nature. When the seasons change, Gawain's state of mind is different. e.g. winter = sad - when he has to leave Camelot. This use of nature is also somewhat seen in the Green Knight in that there is a contrast between his sort-of "wild"/"outlandish" character compared to the knights of the round table.
For background information...
www.kingarthursknights.com
Out of curiosity, if Gawain ended up being seduced by Bertilak's wife (and gave in), what would have exchanged the between Bertilak and Gawain been like... a little more than three kisses I presume. o.0
Your thoughts?
Dan, I think Albert's queer theory is based on what you propose. If Bertilak and Gawain are going to play by the rules, as we discussed today, then Gawain would have to give Bertilak exactly what he received from Bertilak's wife. I think (correct me if I'm wrong Albert) that Bertilak would have known that intercourse between his wife and Gawain was a distinct possibility and that he thus proposed the game so that he could (for want of a better phrase) "get some."
However, I don't think this theory really holds up because it was revealed that Bertilak and his wife were only pawns in Morgan le Fay's test of one of Arthur's knights. Thus, Bertilak's wants and desires would not matter very much because he is just a vehicle of Morgan's plot, not acting of his own accord.
Considering the history of Authorian legends, I do not think that this particular text implies the Morgan is benign.
Why does she feel the need to test Arthur's knights? I suppose it is out of spite to Arthur. She wants his knights to fail so that she can prove that Arthur's court is not as morally idealic as it appears. Anyone disagree?
Going back to yesterday's discussion about faith. I thought that Gawain accepted the challenge of the Green Knight because he had faith in the code. However, he did not have faith that the Green Knight would live again after being beheaded. Was this wrong, and Gawain was punished for this lack of faith by being tested? I do not understand why Gawain should have trusted that the Green Knight was a freakish, possesed man who wouldn't die. Anybody care to explain?
Well, any rational human being will believe that a person whose head is chopped off will not live for much longer. Morgan probably figured this and employing the help of Merlin (i think?), the green knight was invincible. This allowed Morgan to lure one of the knights of the round table into that little game.
And yes, Gawain's faith was probably in the knight's code.
As for why Morgan did it... I really can't say. Probably the ongoing "battle" between Arthur and Morgan. This episode turned out to be in Morgan's favor because Gawain returns to Camelot in shame.
Just a thought about what Theresa/Albert said. (I'll probably get attacked for this).
I agree that any rational person would think that a knight without a head would be dead (rhyme!). However, I don't think this story is as much about rationality as it is about honor, chivalry, and knighthood. Looking back on Arthurian legendry, we see a lot of things that could not happen in real life. Merlin's wizardry, Morgen's sorcery, etc, could not be rationalized. Out-of-the ordinary things had happened before.
I think whats more important about this is the power of the word. During Arthurian times (and knighthood in general), your word was a very powerful tool. If you think about it, the Green Knight himself never lies. He makes the challege clear, and follows through with it.
I would argue that this goes back to Gawain's battle with these "laws of a higher power" versus his own human beleif. Had Gawain followed the rules, and taken the Green Knight's word, he would have known exactly what he was getting himself into. I feel like this goes back to the overall sense that if the rules of knighthood were followed by all, the world would be simpler.
As for Morgen, I agree with Theresa: she's bad. However, even she plays by the rules in this challenge. When she doesn't "win" in her test of Gawain, he is still able to go home.
I'd like to pose a new question for everyone: Does anyone think that the Green Knight himself is evil?
As for the homosexual theory, I've read things going both ways. My feeling is that there is not a homosexual relation going on, at least not for Gawain. He returns the kisses to his lord because it is his duty, and from what we can see, he doesn't think twice about it. I agree that it would have raised a few eyebrows- what a weird thing to return- but the kisses seem to be duty-based.
Another point about the 3 day hunt that I came across: We see the theme of temptation in SGGK. An article I read made a pretty neat comparison between the hunts and this theme. The hind-hunt=temptation of lust; the boar-hunt=temptation of pride; the fox-hunt=temptation of avarice (Gawain's failure in truth).
Also, I agree with Dan in that the reason Gawain didn't have sex with the wife is because he would then have to do the same with the host. The wife clearly would want that since she's been giving him hints (the girdle=sexual gesture).
Anyone know what we are discussing in class tomorrow (Monday)?
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